Forum :: Lounge :: So, you've decided to make a new game.

Congratulations! Unfortunately that'll be the only congratulations you get for now. The remainder of this post will not be me rallying up the troops or trying to prove we can do it. This is down to earth, down to business stuff. Regardless of whether anyone on the outside thinks you, or we, can do it, the fact is that we've decided to give it a shot and we may as well make it our best shot.

Beginnings

One of the first things we learned way back as far as Grade 10 (Art, Tech, whatever) is that you need to know what your project is going to be before you begin. This is probably the one common mistake that many indie game developers seem to come across all too often, not because they don't plan ahead, but because they don't plan ahead far enough. To put this into context, a game developer may decide to have a medieval themed game with castles, kings, swords and monsters because hey, fuck it, why not.

This is fine, until it comes time to actually do anything. The graphic designers don't know whether the game should be 2D, 2D isometric or 3D and can't design sprites and textures for it accordingly. Meanwhile the developers are trying to decide whether to make it 2D or 3D at the last minute and all of a sudden, we have a problem. That problem compounds itself when it comes time to design the world maps and we don't have enough, or don't have the right sprites and textures to cover the kind of areas being built.

So sit down and have a plan first. Decide whether the game will be medieval, with swords and castles and... yeah, or something else. Then decide whether it'll be 2D, 2D isometric, 3D, or a combination of the lot, Age of Empires style. Decide on one area of the map to start on first, even if it's just an empty field surrounded by cliff walls, to give us something to start with and build on, refining and making improvements to get it right before we even think about expanding on to it.

That brings me to another point. Start small. You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk, and you have to learn to walk before you learn to run. Endless Online has probably thousands of individual graphics and probably just as many textures. Like I said, start with an empty field first if we have to. Get the grass right, the trees, the rock cliff faces, the dirt paths. Simple things. Develop maybe five outfits, five hats, five shoes, five weapons for each gender. You can always add more later. Make sure these are absolutely right before you think about building a town or city. That way we can at least get a graphical style down as well right from the start so everything matches up.

This will be our proof of concept version. Our v0.1. We can use this to start testing and to gather feedback over the development cycle so by the time it gets to 0.20 or something, it's starting to take shape rather than just being a complete mess.

Inspiration

Everyone needs inspiration. Without it, there is no passion, no drive to a project. Even Vult-r and the Endless Online team were inspired by a game called Dark Ages. Don't be afraid to draw inspiration and ideas in the early stages from somewhere else. It is simply the best way to gather rapid-fire ideas and to look at examples of other people's work on how to best achieve something, be it a graphic design or a map layout, even a musical or sound style. 

Personally i'd be thrilled to see our game based on something like The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time, it's a bit dated now but the kind of gameplay and old style graphics make for a prime candidate for what we're doing. Just be careful not to copy it verbatim. If the game consists of defeating temples and destroying a Ganon knockoff, then you did it wrong. Go back and try again.

As a matter of fact, this is actually a very simple way to get started. If everyone agrees on an idea of what the game should be like based on inspiration from an older game, then we all have a rough picture in our head of what the game should be like and can design all of our individual pieces similarly. We'll still need to fix a few things in post, but at least we'll all be on the same or fairly close pages.

Finally, inspire yourself. It's not "our shitty game", it's our work in progress. If you think it can be great, if you aspire and work toward it being great, then it'll be great.

Resources

Since we've decided that we're going to start from scratch here, we need good human resources more than ever, and they need to be properly assigned and managed. What that essentially means is that we can't have 12 graphic artists for 3 developers and just one composer. Ideally we would have something closer to 3 artists, 3 map designers, 3 composers (2 for game sounds, 1 for game music), and 2 to 3 developers with a focus on developing the server and client... and so on.

The best projects are made in small teams. It's a fact of life. The smaller the overall group, the closer all of them are when it comes to sharing ideas and styles and the better the fit-and-finish of the overall game will be.

So, what so we need here?

There's the ones we already know. Artists make the sprites and textures. World Designers develop the layout of the world, the buildings, the dungeons. Composers make the game sounds and music. Developers tie it all together in a client and server package.

Then there's the ones we don't know as much but are equally as important. Designers are the ones that design aspects such as gameplay, what EXP will be gained from monsters and fights, quests and other tasks associated with things to do in the game. Producers, and there is usually two of them, do all the management associated with the game. The Internal Producer is responsible for overseeing the progress of the game development, art, audio, etc and acts as a general manager of the project- in our case they may also be associated with a team, such as the developers. Then there's the External Producer who is responsible for overseeing public relations, advertising, the website and community, quality assurance, public or private beta testing and if there's money involved, they manage the finances.

Evolution

Eventually the game will need to evolve, and I did think about whether to include this bit considering I just told you all to start small. I chose to include it because it gives us something to aim for. The first public release will be our first milestone, along with the first port to another platform (whether you like Linux, Mac OS, iPhone, etc or not, every other platform you port to is hundreds of potential new users), then the first major in-game event... you know how it goes. Take it all one at a time though, but these are the exciting moments we get to look forward to if we succeed.

tl;dr.

If you just skipped to this part, then you've missed out on an awful lot. I really do recommend that you find some more time and go for a read through this in its entirety. This bit is only about to get longer anyway.

For those of you that read through the entire thing, great, hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying here. Just for the hell of it though, I will summarise what *I* think we need to get started. It may not be a complete list, it may be subject to change, so it's just a rough outline, but regardless:

Form a core team of no more than 17 staff. 3 of these should be graphic artists. 3 should be composers, with 2 of the three focused on sounds and the remaining one composing music. 3 World Designers should be appointed. 3 Developers should be appointed to work on the client and server side of things. 2 more should be Game Designers, working on just what theme our game will be centered around and what players will be able to do in it. We need at least one Internal Producer to oversee the entire operation, maybe two (I would suggest someone like Apollo or Rena, or someone of equal skill set for this job) and one External Producer should be appointed to handle all the promotion and paperwork.

Once we're set, first of all, we should all get together and start filling the required staff roles. We should discuss some of the basics, like what theme our game will have (medieval, modern, etc) and whether it should be 2D, Isometric, 3D and all the other basics of the game. One decided, we can split off into our individual teams and begin working.

The Artists should discuss among themselves and start coming up with some examples of what they can do, mainly characters, male and female bodies, grass, trees and other textures, etc and presenting them in graphic form to the entire community.

The World Designers should start by designing a basic map. It doesn't have to be anything flash, even the equivalent of a basic Endless Online style "Tutorial Island" would be sufficient since it's mostly trees, dirt and grass with a couple of buildings thrown in. Perfect to start with and it gives us something to build on.

Composers have it easy to start with, but I would advise starting with some things we know we're going to need. Basic sounds like notification noises (if a trade window opens, play the "PING" sound, well, make the ping sound) and other user interface noises, some basic attack sounds are also a good starting point. The music composer can come up with some basic main menu music or open field music for the game if they wish.

The Game Designers need to start thinking up the initial stuff, like what our name will be. Don't settle for something like Fallen Evolution or Bones Underground (sorry guys) but there's a reason games like Final Fantasy sound cool.

Developers have a big task ahead, they essentially need to build the game client and server. Getting the game client to work with a server in its most basic form may be a good start. Who knows, maybe we can extend onto the codebase of EOSERV. If you can create a very crude game to create an account, log in, then move a square (or cube if it's a 3D game) around with other squares/cubes on the server, then that's a good starting point I guess.

All of these individual teams need to converse with each other so they're all working toward the same goal, the same style of maps, the same style of sounds, the same style of graphics. We all need to present our work to the other teams and staff, most likely via the forums, so we know what we're all working on and can build this as one big game instead of a bunch of little pieces. We check in with the other teams regularly so we keep on track. 

Internal Producers will need to look over all this and make sure we're headed in the right direction, offer constructive input and suggestions.

The External Producer will also need to keep up to date with all of this and make sure promotional materials, funds, resources and so on are in check.

Too Hard.

Whatever. Let me just remind you though that the best selling computer game of all time, The Sims, along with a whole handful of hits like SimCity 2000 were developed by Maxis Games. Maxis started in 1987 by just two guys in a garage that had a passion for making games. 

Apple Inc, makers of the Mac, the iPod, and the iPhone started in 1976 by just two guys in a garage making basic computers for no other reason than "they just felt like it". They're now a multi-billion dollar corporation.

There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be able to pull it off other than people thinking it's too hard and giving up too early. Life is hard, but we're all still here aren't we?

Get to it. Lets start getting some people on board. This thread will remain open for discussion and project progress.

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EOSERV.net Academy Of Trolls, Satirists & Sarcastics
5.5 Years Former Site Administrator / Moderation Team / Member (Retired)

I want to say wonderful wonderful thread. You made a lot of good points in this. I would comment further but I fear my time at the moment is very limited to how long I can post.

Truthfully I have interest and a little experience in two roles available. These are World Designer, and Game Designer both appeal to my creative side and my semi-lack of technical skill in the fact I cant code -_-

I am hoping this project gets off the ground, and we can develop a grand team. I shall post more later.

I can do and have done previously, all of the things above except advertising, sound + art. 

Although I need some time to think about the proposal and I would also like to see who else wants to participate. 

It's all dandy that you want to do this but you seem to underestimate how fucking idiotic some of the people around here are. Just watch this space.

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Web developer, currently looking for graphic artists / designers.

Wtf is this for shit i mean.. did you ever make a game? ( a succesfull 1) i guess the answer is no? since when are you acting ilke your the only 1 on this forum that can make an own game? is it that hard? you just need the right skills. what skills do you have? are you a programmer? artist? story writer? I never saw you actually "help" people the only thing you are doing is acting like a king of making games. and btw Fallen evolution sounds fine and Bones underground sounds fine too what's the reason of Final fantasy sounds cool?

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opensource isometric game engine ~ www.avac-engine.blogspot.com

Klutz posted: (17th Nov 2010 03:22 pm)

It's all dandy that you want to do this but you seem to underestimate how fucking idiotic some of the people around here are. Just watch this space.

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EOSERV.net Academy Of Trolls, Satirists & Sarcastics
5.5 Years Former Site Administrator / Moderation Team / Member (Retired)

I can help. To be honest though, I am not much of a pixeler. I am educated in music but I haven't tried anything on the computer yet. I can program to an extent... I do get good ideas. I can moderate well. I have been told by many people that I am a decent writer. So as far as story and main quests go I could do that. Really, just tell me what you need. 

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Love you too.

clive posted: (17th Nov 2010 03:52 pm)

Wtf is this for shit i mean.. did you ever make a game? ( a succesfull 1) i guess the answer is no? since when are you acting ilke your the only 1 on this forum that can make an own game? is it that hard? you just need the right skills. what skills do you have? are you a programmer? artist?story writer? I never saw you actually "help" people the only thing you are doing is acting like a king of making games. and btw Fallen evolution sounds fine and Bones underground sounds fine too what's the reason of Final fantasy sounds cool?

Who are you talking about? If Terry, then let me tell you this. Terry (Klutz) was the co-owner of Blackwater Park. He is the best mapper I've ever seen, he is a genius when it comes to building websites, he can do artwork that I would never have even thought of, he's fucking brilliant at math, and he's a decent coder as well. I know, because I worked with him.

As for Sblord, he developed an "EOMac" of sorts, by porting EO over using different libraries so that it would work on Macs. No small feat, I might add.

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May he now rest under aegis of mirage -
As the sands slowly turn to Elysian fields

erhmm i was not talking about him klutz is fine. but Sblord is kinda annoying me since this topic is seeming useless.

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opensource isometric game engine ~ www.avac-engine.blogspot.com

If you're going to make a "successor" to EO then some key elements must be kept, here's what I think would make up for the successful follow up:

• New client 

Not a new game, to do this right we would have to first fully emulate the original clients features and usability, and fix all the bugs. Adding new features and resources comes after the first part.

• Dedicated team

This doesn't mean the best, you don't need the best mapper or the best coder or leader. If it takes 300% longer for an amateur artist to draw something that the pro artist would easily, then let the time take it's place. Rushing things will only deter plans.

• New / old graphics

In my opinion EO graphics sucks. Not the fact that it's a 2D game, because I love 2D. The fact that it's not themed very well. There's no originality. For a lot of people, especially those who take the "role playing" perspective on toying with these games, a unique theme is needed.

But in saying a new theme is needed, the graphics should not go too far from the "EO" style. Granted, there has been a lot of graphics regularly posted for public use on these forums, but those are too similar to EO. There needs to be a medium between new / old style.

• New world

I agree that the world of original EO was impressive, but a majority of those maps were horribly made. You only have to go skin deep to find buggy maps or things that just don't look right.

As an addition to new graphics, a complimentary new world with fuller, more thoroughly planned maps to go with the new / old theme. Consistency is key here.

The rest of my opinion is mostly based on the idea of a collaborative team. I'm not going to discuss this as it is a sore subject for me, making my current opinion biased. 

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Web developer, currently looking for graphic artists / designers.

good thread but why didnt u post this in the why is every one leaving topic instead of just making another topic

EO is a very basic game. Vult-r knew that to succeed in making a mmorpg that would be appealing to everyone it had to be as simple as "Mario" games.

To follow in EO's footsteps:

Simple gameplay: While most of us have evolved to PS3 style controllers, simplicity wins. There are more owners of Super Mario Bros than any other video game in the world. Any new elements that are added should be as easily learned as the basic attack/spell system.

Graphics/Sound: EO has ok graphics, bad graphics, missing graphics. As far as the music, most people have it disabled. To stay true to EO, original artwork should be improved where needed (Chaos Spawn...eww) and Sound should be rescored/remastered.

Familiar Areas: Like most sequels, the old areas should be available... but time may have passed changing the landscape/npc population, etc.

Updates: This was EO main's major failure. A game that is not supported cannot succeed. I would recommend no less than 1 updated every 6 months. New items can easily be distributed thru gameplay over the course of 6 months, but the "new" will wear off.

Minimal Staff: Everyone wants to be an admin. EO honestly does not need admin. I would bet that if an exploit was found in current servers, the hired help would know little of how to fix it. Also, admin just warp around with little to do and do not enjoy playing the game. Be very selective of staff.

Dedication: If you are in this long term (lets say 10 years) then go for it, if you can't promise that then you don't need to be on board. Let someone else handle this. This project will need a small team, all of which can be dedicated to maintaining a player base. Those who show up just for pink robes should be canned at the door.

clive posted: (17th Nov 2010 05:44 pm)

erhmm i was not talking about him klutz is fine. but Sblord is kinda annoying me since this topic is seeming useless.

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EOSERV.net Academy Of Trolls, Satirists & Sarcastics
5.5 Years Former Site Administrator / Moderation Team / Member (Retired)

The entire community consists of developers, people with good ideas, leeches and assholes. I know this better than anyone because I often receive junk mail from eoserv users about when Xlembros's gfx will be released, even now that I don't work on BWP. The reason BWP fell was because of the delay and eventual demise of Xlembros's graphic release. And It's not his fault that the leeches and assholes of this community are hanging around like "flies on shit". And as long as there is no official project going on around here, petty servers will continue to leech off of other petty servers, because they think they can do better than someone else.

Anyone ever remember a game called Titan Quest? I only recently became familiar with this game. From what I've learned, they used to have multiple sets of teams working on their own graphical patches or "own game versions". Very much similar to what is happening here. All these years later they only have one real patch now that they call the "fun patch". It became an official project and they dumped all the smaller ones to becoming "forum posts", optional mods that people can use. The fun patch for TQ I hear is a very successful project, although I'm not going to try it until I beat original TQ.

The point is, because we're divided into multiple smaller eo servers, nothing other than hate and fighting is going to come out of it when everyone wants the same fucking thing. Everyone wants to remake EO into their own idea, but at the same time you're using EVERY fucking script release on these forums and paste bin, and EVERY fucking piece of shitty gfx you can find whether it's on these forums or not. How does that make the game your own? How does that make a successful project?

I haven't lost faith because I know there's a handful of people here still with common sense, but I also know that while the option remains to pick a random petty server, there is never going to be "1 server to rule them all" because everyone will leech anything they possibly can from it.

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Web developer, currently looking for graphic artists / designers.

Alright, as Klutz said there will always be leeches. There is still something to think about. Why do people play FE and BU if people can leech 99% of what they have? It's simple, they have more people, actual moderation, and active updates. It doesn't matter if we make a game that people will leech off of because our will be better. It will be better because they can't leech what makes it better. Lets get this thing moving.

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Love you too.

sblord posted: (18th Nov 2010 08:15 am)

clive posted: (17th Nov 2010 05:44 pm)

erhmm i was not talking about him klutz is fine. but Sblord is kinda annoying me since this topic is seeming useless.

Why does it annoy you? It has to be said, if this topic annoys you then you have some serious issues with your priorities. Not only because an EOSERV forum post is not worth getting annoyed over, but I don't see anything in there that would justify it. Is it too hard to read? Lots of big wordsinthere, I know. Doesn't mean you have to be a complete bastard about it though, reading and replying to topics here is optional.

I posted it here because the other thread was made to ask "why is everyone leaving". It's only at random that everyone began to think about making another game, and while everyone was raising their hand, nobody was giving them any direction. Instead of spamming up one thread with myincrediblylong post, I posted it here instead.

Good to see some of you got the right idea, but those of you who got the wrong idea or in the most severe case, decided to be a wank about it, reminded me why this community will never succeed. Nobody can agree on anything, and almost nobody's willing to use more than two brain cells(becausethree is hard) to come up with fair compromises. 

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opensource isometric game engine ~ www.avac-engine.blogspot.com